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Black Mesa Indigenous Support P.O. Box 23501, Flagstaff, Arizona 86002  Message Voice Mail: 928.773.8086 Email: blackmesais@riseup.net

Question & Answer, Senate Bill 1003

McCain: President Shirley and Chairman Taylor, suppose that you had dictatorial powers, what would you do about the Bennett Freeze.   What would be your solution to the Bennett Freeze issue.   We'll begin with you, President Shirley.

Pres Shirley: I don't know anyone with dictatorial powers, senator.

McCain:   Some say that the President of the NN has close to it.

Pres. Shirley: laughs

McCain:   Seriously, in other words, if you had a magic wand, this is the way we settle the Bennett Freeze.   This is important because we're going to try to address that issue.

Pres. Shirley: [couldn't understand] ...a time, senator, when the Hopi Nation and the Navajo Nation lived together harmoniously.   I guess I would like to get back to that.   I know many of our children are intermarried.   Navajo people are married to Hopi people and so we have children who are Hopi and Navajo.   I think also with the Hopi Nation.   And I think where the two Nations at this point in time on working with Chairman Taylor... we try to resolve just that, the Bennett Freeze.   And having resolved it we'll begin to see the harmonious relationship that has gotten away from us, and to begin to develop our lands the way we should.   That's what I'd like to see.

McCain:   You'd like to see it lifted?

Pres. Shirley:   Yes, I'd like to see it lifted, sir.   I think that's what we need.

McCain:   Chairman Taylor.

Taylor:   Well, Chairman McCain, the 1934 land settlement act is in litigation between the two tribes as you well know.   We have been waiting on the District Court to pick this matter back up and we have waited for a very long time.   It is still on the dockets.   What we have done...   [then interrupted by McCain]

McCain:   Well, let me ask you this.   Suppose we lifted the Bennett Freeze tomorrow.   What do you think would ensue on the Bennett Freeze?   Would it be chaos?   Would it be people trying to move in on other people's land?   Would it be.... What do you think would happen?

Taylor:     Chairman McCain, in fact what I was getting ready to say ...

McCain:   I'm sorry.

Taylor:   We have been in negotiations and in fact have reached agreement and have developed a compact, which would settle this lawsuit, and in fact, the Hopi Tribal Council has already ratified this agreement and we're awaiting on the Navajo Council to do likewise, and ...

McCain:   {interrupting again] And the provisions of that, and roughly the outlines of that agreement would be...

Taylor:   The land has been largely partitioned.   What is remaining, Chairman McCain, are the uh in the case of Hopi, the sacred sites, the religious sites that we have remaining on the Navajo 34 areas.   We want those areas to be protected, and we want to have access to all those areas so that we can continue to practice our religious beliefs [and responsibilities - in brackets b/c I'm not sure of exactly what he said here though this is what it sounded like.]

McCain:   President Shirley, your version of this compact?

Pres. Shirley:   We are very diligently working together, the two Nations, to come to agreement about the compact, sir, and I think if we can continue to do that I think that in short order we will have that agreement.   The NNC has been apprised of it, they're looking at it, and I think that god willing, you know, we will have, you know, an agreement.

McCain: Within the year?  

Pres. Shirley:   Given cautions I'd like to see it within the year.

Taylor:   Chairman McCain, again the HTC has already approved the compact.   We're anxious to see it happen this year.   That would, in effect, also lift the Bennett Freeze.

McCain: Mr. Attorney General, do you have a comment on that?

Denetsosie:   Thank you, Senator. The terms of the compact are subject to confidentiality agreement.   Unfortunately, we can't really divulge the details.   It involves {?}senior judgment from the   9 th Circuit District Court, the 9 th Circuit Court of Appeals as the mediator, and we also signed on to the confidentiality agreement and we're really conscious about that.   It's impossible to predict when the two tribes will carve out the final terms.   Like we said, it could be this year.   It could be next year.   That's the best we can say. But we'll look forward to that assistance of the US, not only the DOI but Fish and Wildlife and the US Senate for helping us resolve this quick, in fact in the near future I hope.

McCain:   Well, I don't have to tell any of the witnesses that it's a national shame and disgrace the conditions that exist in the Bennett Freeze area, and it's long overdue that we addressed it, and I hope that this compact or agreement may be consummated ASAP so we can let these people get on with some kind of development.   President Shirley, so keep us informed, would you?

Paragon Ranch in NM was purchased with the intent that coal reserves would generate revenues that would in turn reimburse the Navajo Rehabilitation Trust Fund.   It is my understanding there's no coal research uh resources that are producing.   What do you intend to do with this land.

Pres. Shirley:   I'll go ahead and have our Attorney General answer that, sir.

McCain:   OK, sure, whichever.

Denetsosie: ...Senator, the land has not been transferred to us at this point in time because of appeals by the existing owners of ... exactly applications and it's not for lack of effort on our part but those have been appeals within the BLM and they involve litigation.   For those reasons we still haven't acquired the resources and when we do get the resources, then we can look at the opportunities available for the development of the coal resources.   It's something that is ongoing.   There's a separate bill as you are aware through the Natural Resource Committee at the Senate to try to resolve that issue at this time.

McCain:   Mr. Bitsuie, 16 million was appropriated for the Rehabilitation Trust Fund. I understand that after the conceptual framework was signed these funds went into an interest-bearing account that accrued an additional 8 million dollars, and I understand that 11 million dollars of that fund remains.   Appropriations were made between 1990 and 1995.   Why has there been a ten-year delay in spending that money?

Bitsuie:   Mr. Chairman, the federal gov't loaned the NN 16 million dollars to fund the trust fund.   We have spent on community housing, and other similar projects about 15 to 16 million dollars. But the original loan has also generated another 8 million dollars in interest, which is roughly the unexpended amount remaining in the account.   We are using the interest from the 8 million dollars to fund further projects.   That 8 million dollars itself has been earmarked by the NN for critical land purchases.   Those land purchases have not been complete as the NN has been extremely careful in seeking to acquire land that will actually generate revenue for addressing the adverse impact of the land dispute for years to come.   We are stretching out and maximizing the value of the trust fund.   Land is very important in Navajo culture.   For years the policy of the federal gov't has been to increase tribal self-determination.   In our judgment we have appropriately allocated the resources from the trust fund, Mr. Chairman.

McCain:   Well, in my view you haven't.   It was appropriated 10 -15 years ago and it's not been spent.   And I'm sure if that had been the conditions under it was appropriated, the money wouldn't have been appropriated.   Mr. Bitsuie, the Land Commission received a million and a half in 1998 from the trust fund to build or improve 48 replacement homes on the HPL.   What's the status of this project?   It's only been 7 years.

Bitsuie:   The NN allocated 1.5 million from the trust fund for the construction of 48 homes on HPL. And under the AA that has been entered into between the NN and the Hopi Tribe we were instructed to use or identify the land or the land that was ? for the AA signers to use within a certain period of time so the money was made available.   The 1.5 million only represents only about ½ the cost of those homes.   In an effort to stretch trust fund dollars, we reached an agreement with the Navajo housing services that they would provide labor.   Unfortunately for their own financial reasons, the Navajo housing services was not able to fulfill its contractual commitment.   6 homes were not built, but most of the other 42 have significant problems.   The NN recently have committed another 800,000 to fix the homes and complete the projects.   When complete, the total cost of this project to the trust fund for 48 homes 2.3 million dollars is still a bargain.   Today it would cost about 100,000 per home as was provided by the Relocation Commission, Mr. Bavasi. To build these homes it would cost approximately 4.8 million dollars but we will complete the homes at a cost of half of that amount, Mr. Chairman.

McCain:   So if we waited another 20 years it would probably cost a million dollars per home so we should wait ... longer.   Is that the logic you're giving me, Mr. Bitsuie?

Bitsuie:   We are on a timeframe that we will complete the renovation of these homes by the end of this year as well as the 6 homes that were not constructed, Mr. Chairman.

McCain:   Thank you very much.   Could I just ask how often, President Shirley, do you and Chairman Taylor communicate with each other?

Pres. Shirley:   (almost sounding bored) We communicate as often as is needed, sir, on different issues, you know, relative to the Bennett Freeze or whatever...

McCain: [interrupting] You have good lines of communication?

Pres. Shirley:   Yes, we do.

McCain: Chairman Taylor

Taylor: We do, Mr. Chairman, we do communicate quite frequently.   This is just one of a number of issues that we're dealing with.   We're working together to preserve the Mohave Plant, which is a major part of the economic ? for the two nations and that also is another matter that takes tremendous amounts of our time, and we do work together with our teams on those projects.

McCain:   I suggest that there's a lot of issues maybe more than in the past that exist that are in the mutual interests of both tribes, as you mentioned the Mohave PP situation, housing, the Bennett Freeze, pending compacts between the two tribes, and I would suggest that you two schedule regularly schedule meeting as happens between leaders that have issues of mutual interest so that you have an agenda, meet and see what can be resolved and report back to the tribal councils, and the Hopi and Navajo people.   It's my suggestion given the number of issues that exist that are in the mutual interest of both tribes that you establish a set of regularly scheduled meetings between the two of you at least in this period while we're addressing major issues that affect both tribes.    I encourage it.   I'm not saying that you must.   I'm just saying it would be helpful to us to know the agenda that both tribes are pursuing, the NN and Hopi tribe are pursuing, in order to try to achieve some of these goals.

The last, I think I started this hearing and maybe I should close it by saying that when Congress gets involved in issues such as a land dispute many times the law of unintended consequences is going to prevail, and I don't think anyone thought that in 1974 that we would be here, sitting here, 31 years later without some of these issues having been resolved, and I think that if in 1974 if the two tribal leaders had been able to sit down and negotiate these issues out that we would be discussing other important and compelling issues like education, like healthcare, like housing.   There's a number of issues that clearly the federal gov't has not fulfilled its responsibilities to either tribe. I'd like to be able to put these issues behind us so that we can concentrate on providing proper healthcare, education, and housing to both tribes which we all know is terribly lacking and behind the rest of the nation.   Any comment, Chairman Taylor?

[my comment - last part definitely rehearsed and planned to be used - can you say campaign 2008?]

Taylor: Mr. Senator, I think you're very much on point.   I couldn't agree with you more.

McCain:   President Shirley?

Pres. Shirley: Point well taken, sir.   I totally agree.

McCain:   I think a lot of this is going to depend on the cooperation of the two of you elected leaders and I'm pleased to see that this relationship has matured in a way that was perhaps not the case in previous administrations and both organizations.   Mr. Attorney General, it's always a pleasure to see you again.   Do you have any other comments you'd like to make?

Denetsosie: I'm ready to wait for the software.

[Laughing - McCain's definitely forced]

McCain: Mr. Bitsuie?

Bitsuie:   Thank you very much, sir.

McCain:   Thank you very much.   We'll work very closely with you as we proceed on this issue.   Thank you very much.   This hearing is adjourned.

Pres. Shirley:   Thank you very much, sir.